tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post508294596748061463..comments2023-12-24T07:02:43.274+08:00Comments on Catalogue of Organisms: Taxon of the Week: Leg or Breast?Christopher Taylorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-37820645841629274952007-09-28T00:50:00.000+08:002007-09-28T00:50:00.000+08:00Oh, i dunno looks like fun to me. Mmmm, Moa McNug...Oh, i dunno <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnKBQquzGXE" REL="nofollow">looks like fun to me</A>. Mmmm, Moa McNugget.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10293693723899837239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-29045536231051378212007-09-26T19:44:00.000+08:002007-09-26T19:44:00.000+08:00Thanks for the answer! Another bird that has also ...Thanks for the answer! Another bird that has also been shoved around a lot would be Gastornis (Diatryma). It has been regarded as a ratite, an anseriform (probably correctly), a giant heron, a relative of albatrosses, a relative of parrots...<BR/>The hoatzin was also placed nearly everywhere, from "most primitive living bird" to passeriform.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-82804686298965456342007-09-26T13:04:00.000+08:002007-09-26T13:04:00.000+08:00Christopher; thank you for clearing that up in my ...Christopher; thank you for clearing that up in my mind for what it is worth:), Certainly a curious animal, and the ecological placement of the Kiwi (I watched an ABC dodo on the subject), in the scavenger area, like a rodent. Living in Australia, we can see the adaptation to niches in the environment where more common Northern Hemisphere rodents occupy.<BR/><BR/>Cheers and keep up the good work.Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431886771411177473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-50940119344090739152007-09-26T12:07:00.000+08:002007-09-26T12:07:00.000+08:00Oh and Neil: if what I've seen on the telly of ost...Oh and Neil: if what I've seen on the telly of ostrich-racing is any indication, I'd rather doubt the suitability of moa as a mount. You'd be far better off using your cloned moa for the world's biggest Chicken McNugget.Christopher Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-70848525660700595862007-09-26T12:04:00.000+08:002007-09-26T12:04:00.000+08:00Clifford: Despite the lack of wings, moa are still...Clifford: Despite the lack of wings, moa are still undoubtedly birds - there are still a large number of other characters shared with other birds, and more specifically with other ratites. Take a look at the skull and the legs, for instance. The absence of wings in moa is a derived feature, so moa would have indeed descended from an ancestor with wings (or at least forelimbs). Moa and other ratites do have a breastbone - what they lack compared to other birds is the carina, the deep keel on the front of the breastbone that anchors the enlarged wing muscles. Other flightless birds show various stages of reduction of the carina, but I don't know whether any non-ratite birds have entirely lost it as in ratites.Christopher Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-90480587726990122082007-09-26T11:20:00.000+08:002007-09-26T11:20:00.000+08:00Chris;Curious about the observations about no wing...Chris;<BR/><BR/>Curious about the observations about no wings. Given I am an engineer not a biologist please bear with me? How do we know it is a bird? In other words, did it loose wings or arms? I understand it hasn't a breastbone either.<BR/><BR/>Clifford M DuberyCliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431886771411177473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-41749502506559915632007-09-25T23:09:00.000+08:002007-09-25T23:09:00.000+08:00When we drove past an emu farm recently, I asked m...When we drove past an emu farm recently, I asked my girlfriend if she would let me clone a moa and ride it around Davis. She seemed dubious...Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10293693723899837239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-34787717623237317482007-09-25T21:18:00.000+08:002007-09-25T21:18:00.000+08:00I don't know if it was a full cladistic analysis o...I don't know if it was a full cladistic analysis or not, but Weber & Hesse (1995) did suggest a relationship to Galloanserae based on features of the lower jaw. Worthy & Holdaway (2002) suggested that these similarities might be functional convergences, and noted one feature that was supposed to be unique to Galloanserae and <I>Aptornis</I> to be very similar to a character of the rail <I>Porphyrio</I>. I haven't personally read the Weber & Hesse study to comment on it, I must admit.<BR/><BR/>So if you also add the fact that Richard Owen originally described <I>Aptornis</I> as a species of <I>Dinornis</I>, the adzebill has at some time or another been assigned to every one of the major clades of modern birds - Palaeognathae, Galloanserae, Metaves, Coronaves. Can any other bird claim such loose associations?Christopher Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-70719286259955330952007-09-25T20:45:00.000+08:002007-09-25T20:45:00.000+08:00Hasn't there also been a cladistic analysis that g...Hasn't there also been a cladistic analysis that got Aptornis as sister of the Galloanserae?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-79657476846066453892007-09-25T20:20:00.000+08:002007-09-25T20:20:00.000+08:00Whoops, it seems I must correct myself. Aptornis h...Whoops, it seems I must correct myself. <I>Aptornis</I> had stupidly small wing bones, maybe even smaller proportionally than a kiwis, but it did still have them. They probably wouldn't have been visible under the feathers, but then neither are a kiwi's.Christopher Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-11802597149207152872007-09-25T17:01:00.000+08:002007-09-25T17:01:00.000+08:00Also the fact that moa uniquely amongst birds didn...<I>Also the fact that moa uniquely amongst birds didn't have wings at all, while kiwi do.</I><BR/><BR/>Not uniquely, as it happens. Another New Zealand bird decided to ditch those useless little sticking-out bits - the adzebill <I>Aptornis</I>. <I>Aptornis</I> was a large bird with a ridiculously over-powered skull and dubious habits - it was probably a generalist feeder, possibly using its beak to break open fallen logs to get at animals, insects, etc. within.<BR/><BR/>The affinities of <I>Aptornis</I> are arguably even more obscure than those of the moa. It is a member of the polyphyletic "Gruiformes". Morphological data connects it with <I>Rhynochetos</I>, the endangered kagu of New Caledonia, but suffers from the extreme wierdness of <I>Aptornis</I>. Molecular data connects it with the Rallidae (rails), but suffers from the fact that only the merest fragment of ancient DNA has been recovered. If the Metaves-Coronaves division of modern birds is correct, then <I>Rhynochetos</I> is Metaves while Rallidae is Coronaves, so this is a pretty significant conflict between results. In this case, I'd favour the morphology, because the amount of molecular data is still just pitiful.Christopher Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-50962141892694470932007-09-25T16:24:00.000+08:002007-09-25T16:24:00.000+08:00Also the fact that moa uniquely amongst birds didn...Also the fact that moa uniquely amongst birds didn't have wings at all, while kiwi do.<BR/><BR/>I've always wondered what moa did with their head while they slept. Perhaps they died out of never being able to get a good night's sleep :)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09053707150866449830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-80937864456035215162007-09-25T11:46:00.000+08:002007-09-25T11:46:00.000+08:00Thanks! That is what I was after.Thanks! That is what I was after.John S. Wilkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417266986565803683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-20135041045034960572007-09-24T13:19:00.000+08:002007-09-24T13:19:00.000+08:00Ha! You know not what you ask...Most earlier autho...Ha! You know not what you ask...<BR/><BR/>Most earlier authors supported a moa-kiwi connection, and morphological analyses have tended to support this, usually with the New Zealand ratite clade fairly low down on the tree. Molecular data, on the other hand, separates the two. Moa are still low on the tree (possibly even outside the clade of living ratites) while kiwis are sister to the Casuariiformes (emus and cassowaries).<BR/><BR/>I'm inclined to support the molecular data, more because of the kiwis than the moa. Kiwis are highly apomorphic compared to other living ratites, being the only clade of small insectivores/vermivores instead of large herbivores, and I suspect that their oddball nature may be giving them a spuriously low position in the tree. I have to admit that I don't necessarily have a lot of hard support for my position, though.Christopher Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11075565866351612441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5460788270738656369.post-71052182472790901672007-09-24T12:44:00.000+08:002007-09-24T12:44:00.000+08:00Are they closely related to the kiwi? I seem to re...Are they closely related to the kiwi? I seem to recall a Gould essay that suggested this.John S. Wilkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417266986565803683noreply@blogger.com